Pied in the sky

Cornsnake chat, help and advice
cornsnakecorner
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 Oct 2015, 16:01

Pied in the sky

by cornsnakecorner » 07 Jan 2016, 01:34

Hi all
I've been doing a bit of work with "Diffused", "Bloodred", " Masque" and "Pied"

Diffused is a Received gene producing a lack of any belly markings and a fused lateral pattern.

Bloodred is as above but with the red coat.

Image
Bloodred

Masque: although in the past was thought to be a Het marker for Diffused it's now categorised a Dominant gene "although I'm working to find out if it's a Co-Dominant gene or/and Polygenic with Diffused".
Masque: producing a separation down the centre of the belly markings pulling the markings to each side, as masque is polymorphic sometimes can lack the majority or all of the belly marking and also changing the head pattern to give it a grey look. Masque with no belly marking can tend to be identified by the black outlines of the belly checks on the edging of the lower side pattern. Masque is somewhat Polymorphic, sometimes hardly noticeable to extreme with no belly markings at all.

Masque is a bit of a difficult gene to master due to its Polymorphism; it’s not just a matter of breeding Masque to work out this gene. It’s also breeding it back out to see if you're working with Homozygous Masque or Heterozygous Wild Type.

Image

Image
Masque as you can see the check pattern on the neck

Pied is?? “Polygenic Masque + Diffused”, “Super Masque” or “Super Masque + Diffused” "selective Breeding"??
Masque is a big factor in the Pied morph and can produce some stunning patterns. As Masque is a Dormant gene it seems to be everything which may not be a good thing. In a few years we may have to work to get the wild type gene back.

Polygenic is more than one pairs of allele genes working together, not to be confused with Polymorphic that is different extremes of a effect i.e. if visual, ailment or other genetic trait.

Image
Lightly Pied Hypo Bloodred

I’m only in the early stages and this may take many more years of breeding to prove what category the masque gene truly fits into.

Then there’s this beautiful 4 month old lightly pied "Bloodred" whom through a spanner in the works when born.
Sire Bloodred, Masque
Dam red coat masque Het Diffused

Image

Image

Image

I “was” in no doubt this is a true Bloodred and then !

Image

I have never had or seen a Bloodred/Diffused with markings on the belly/neck and also notice the pattern and line come from the side of the neck. I’m leaning towards this being a Super form of Masque Het Diffused and may be Polygenic. If it wasn’t for the red coat covering the sides it would truly resemble some of the paler i.e. Anerys, Pewters high end Pie Sided Corns I’ve seen coming up for sale which is a understandable confusion working with these genes.
The only way I’m going truly find out is by breeding backwards with a non Masque, non Diffused Corn Snake but preferably with a Diffused Corn with no Masque, if I can find one that is.

My findings and ferries to date: but far from being proven.

Masque is Co-Dominant

lightly Pied could be:
Super Masque
But as I feel it could be a Polygenic trait:
Diffused + Masque het Wild Type
Super Masque het Diffused

High end Pied:
Super Masque + Diffused

I still have a long long way to go and nothing is 100% until proven i.e. If the pair of Dominant alleles work with a het Recessive non-visual trait in a Dominant to Incomplete-Dominant grouping for a single trait and how much Polymorphism factors. If proven this could be the first Polygenic mutation know in Corn Snakes.

If anyone else is also doing work on deciphering these Genes and would like to add to this it would be much appreciated

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eeji
Administrator
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Joined: 25 Sep 2007, 21:12

Re: Pied in the sky

by eeji » 08 Jan 2016, 00:43

Great post and a very interesting subject, hopefully your project will help shine more light on such a confusing combination, especially what pied sided actually is and how it works.

...also that first photo is an absolute stunner of a bloodred! :thumbs:

cornsnakecorner
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 Oct 2015, 16:01

Re: Pied in the sky

by cornsnakecorner » 09 Jan 2016, 06:38

Thanks eeji, he's a proper old skool bloodred, a lot of bloods have been diluted as new blood line have been introduced and as the they have been introduced in to other morphs.

It is a good project and in this early stage it’s all unknown, in the end! Pied could be something as simple as super Masque and high end pied could be polymorphism or selective breeding of super Masque. Time will tell

cornsnakecorner
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 Oct 2015, 16:01

Re: Pied in the sky

by cornsnakecorner » 17 Aug 2016, 03:29

Sorry the images are missing. New web server and new links. I will repost soon

cornsnakecorner
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 Oct 2015, 16:01

Re: Pied in the sky

by cornsnakecorner » 03 Jan 2017, 21:26


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Isoldael
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Joined: 15 Oct 2012, 12:58

Re: Pied in the sky

by Isoldael » 17 Jan 2017, 16:45

Interesting, that seems to confirm what many of us have suspected for a while now about super masque diffused leading to pied. I hope we'll see more people try and test this so we'll know once and for all.
CB12 1.0 anery stripe(Nash)
CB13 1.0 hypo pewter (Loki)
CB13 1.0 bloodred het amel, charcoal, hypo, stripe 50% phet anery, lavender (Kasumi)

CB07 0.1 normal het amel (Saphira)
CB12 0.1 tessera het amel, anery, stripe (Lilith)
CB12 0.1 amel (Aurora)
CB14 0.1 hypo bloodred het anery, charcoal, stripe 50% phet amel, lavender (Mara)

Previously owned:
CB06 1.0 normal het amel (Jake)

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pitviper
Posts: 1
Joined: 04 Apr 2015, 00:29

Re: Pied in the sky

by pitviper » 21 Jan 2017, 18:43

PIED IN THE SKY: Snakebreeder bred a male hypo avalanche pied to its daughter which was a Hypo Diffused het amel, anery & pied in 2015.
We did not know the Avalanche was Pied until they produced: (only showing the pied morphs)
Hypo Diffused Pied het amel & anery.
Hypo Fire Pied het anery.
Hypo Granite Pied het amel.
I held back a few of these morphs which are coming along very well and if all goes well they be bred in 2018.
I hope that the admin will add the pied morph in the calculator as not their yet.
pitviper / snakebreeder.com
:ty: :fw:

Balaena
Posts: 52
Joined: 21 Oct 2015, 17:54

Re: Pied in the sky

by Balaena » 28 Jan 2017, 12:52

pitviper wrote:I hope that the admin will add the pied morph in the calculator as not their yet.


As far as I know the correct inheritance of pied is not 100% sure thats why they didnt put pied in the calculator yet. ;)


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