Stargazer. To test or not to test?

[sguidotti]

one question though, if a corn is 100% het gazer and is bred to a gazer free corn does this mean the offspring are still het gazers or does the percentage drop? and if these offspring are bred to non gazers does the percentage drop again or does the snake become gazer free?

I think that makes them ALL 50% [possibly] het for SG ?

[Adsclarke]

Hey - yes it works like any other gene pairing..

Het SG X Not het SG = 50% poss het SG
Het SG X Het SG = Homozygous or 66% poss het SG

Cheers
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[Laryana]

Stargazing...

Of course it is a very important topic - or SHOULD be important to cornsnake keepers and breeders.
I have the bad feeling that many people still don't even have any idea what "Stargazer" really means and how far-reaching it could be.

My opinion: It is necessary to test - although it's a hard way getting through this.
Unfortunately, responsible-minded breeding is not only fun with pretty cornsnakes, you have to keep in mind both sides and there will be Problems like Stargazer, hatchlings with bad kinks or other physical problems which causes hatchlings to be unviable.

It's sad, it's a shame, but breeders only can solve this Stargazer problem with testing to get gazer-free lines. If this was practiced by all breeders, we could all look forward having only tested animals.

To keep it realistically, I'm not sure if it really will work because many people don't care of this, so it's a great job those breeders do. Soon they will be able to offer gazer-free cornsnakes and that is what should be appreciated.

[Nickie5]

When I think about this topic, the thing that is brought to my mind is the testing that older pregnant women go through to test their babies for down syndrome. Some mothers (not all) who's babies come back as positive can choose to abort the pregnancy, and some do. The way I feel about it is this, there should be testing to figure out what causes it, not just if a snake has it, or is a carrier. If we can figure out what causes this to happen, we can find a way to make it so its not so horrible for the animals and devastating for the breeder who's entire clutch hatches with this disease(?). Its kind of like this: someone (person) is coughing, sneezing, and throwing up; do we destroy the person because we don't know whats wrong, or do we do a blood test and find out that its only the flu, and they can take some antiviral medications? I dont think the question is whether or not to destroy an animal for the sake of science, I think the problem is that a lot of people do not understand genetics or testing. Studying the genetics is as easy as a swab of saliva, a little of blood from a blood test, or even hair (mammalia);the subject does not need to be destroyed or harmed to do this.

[vetdebbie]

This research is also being done as much as possible. The trouble is that no one has the money to sequence the corn snake genome, and until that is done we can't use any bodily fluids for genetic testing. I suspect that if we ever identify the exact cause of the problem it will prove to be untreatable though.

[Dale-Newby]

testing is to see which are carriers and which arnt those who arn't carriers are safe to breed, they can slowly reduce numbers of gazer carriers out there.

so its safe for people who are interested in breeding there corns knowing there corns can be free from the gene. its a slow & long progress for breeders to clear lines but its great work there doing. that way buyers who are aware of the gene can a get a corn off these breeders knowing its parents were tested and are free from the gene.

Great work Ads, Debbie, Johan and others who are willing to help free & reduce these numbers in the gene pool from this horrible gene, its a shame for those gazers that are born & euthanized but if no one does something about it, its never gotta get better, just worse.

[eeji]

I notice a few people have mentioned that it should come down to 'a simple blood test' etc. This is a simple and straight forward procedure in humans only because of the research and further back in history the gruesomness that took place to learn what makes us tick. We have all benefited from this history and now the same is happening with cornsnakes. I know technology has advanced a lot since those times but it is still extremely expensive and to the 'powers that be' cornsnakes are not on the 'to do' list purely because it will be no benefit to them, only to the relative small scale breeders who cannot afford it.

Unfortunately, SG is genetic and not a disease which if it was would make things a whole lot easier.

[Dale-Newby]

I notice a few people have mentioned that it should come down to 'a simple blood test' etc. This is a simple and straight forward procedure in humans only because of the research and further back in history the gruesomness that took place to learn what makes us tick. We have all benefited from this history and now the same is happening with cornsnakes. I know technology has advanced a lot since those times but it is still extremely expensive and to the 'powers that be' cornsnakes are not on the 'to do' list purely because it will be no benefit to them, only to the relative small scale breeders who cannot afford it.

Unfortunately, SG is genetic and not a disease which if it was would make things a whole lot easier.

Total Agree with you. nicely put as well. i dnt see SG as a Disease because like you basically said an injection can not cure it. but i see it more of a symptom due to its affects that are visable with the snakes appearance when moving! but imagine how great it would be, if we could just take are Non Gazers, Gazers or Het Gazers, to the vet and have them vaccinated or cured...... be so much better for then corns. But thats not reality the hardship we face is real and the necessary Action (Testing) Needs to be done.

[SpecialCorns Johan]

For the people who never see them.
This how tha cornworld wil llook when whe do nothing

[youtube]K0vO6jfIe9o[/youtube]

Cheers Johan

[Musharaf]

I have seen this before on youtube, but it never stops to break my heart

I want to cuddle them and take care of them and call them george

I think you are doing the right thing, and in this internet time and age more and more people will hear of this.

[RachaelBee]

Is 10-20-30 breeders testing for gazers going to stop the entire population of corns being gazer free? No.

No, but if you believe in something you should lead by example and you have to start somewhere right?

[scotsman]

I seemed to have missed this discussion, but I'm here now, and heres my opinion.

I personally, the same as Johan and Adam and Niels and Debbie, am testing my Corns for this gene. I think its a sensible thing to do to try and stop or at least reduce this gene being spread.
I think I have came up with a good example to show why its better to test:

Lots of people have Dogs, would any of you buy a puppy from a Breeder that has bred with Dogs that have the Hip Dysplasia?

I don't think so, so what do you do, you buy the puppy somewhere where you can trust the breeder. At the end of the day the Breeder with the Hip Dysplasia puppys doesn't sell any and gives up breeding, this is the reason behind Testing for Stargazer, people can then make thier own choice if they want to buy "possible" Carriers or if they would prefer to buy known non carriers of a bad Genetical disorder.

It may take years, but at some stage the little Reptile shop on the Corner will also prefer to buy his Stock from Breeders that care about thier hobby.

As mentioned above this is just my opinion, its not a rule, and I won't force anyone to start Testing, but I would expect a little tolerance from the people that are against Testing, I personally do the Testing to clear my conscience that I am only giving away Healthy Snakes.

This discussion is a good thing, but as Adam says it should stay friendly and qualified, no need to start arguments or such.

[Wilko92]

Wow, I really should come on here more often!

This is what i'm trying to say though, as you're seeming to be getting a little bit touchy about this topic. How many 1st time buyers go into a petshop & say... "Oh is my corn snake gazer free?" Corns get the credit for being the easiest, most docile & tamest snakes you can buy, but no one ever tells you about these things.

Most breeders won't tell shops that there snakes are ph gazer, if this thing is going to work, it needs to be more widespread than a few breeders off a website. Yeah i know there is other people doing it, but you lot killing loadsa snakes isn't going to help my local aquarium that are completely clueless about what Sg is.

I'm not going to post again on this topic because it will end up turning into a slanging, points scoring match & i'm not really in the mood for it.

I think there is no definitive answer to this, most hobbyests would probably be against it, people whos business it is to breed & sell corns will be for it.

When I found out about Stargazing, do you know what I did? I read up about it and posted about it on forums. I tried to spread the word, to let people know about it! Saying "Oh, no-one knows about, it'll never work, why bother?" is a very defeatist way of putting it. Why not tell people? Why not inform your local petshops if they aren't already aware? Send them links to youtube videos and explain why Stargazing is bad and avoiding it is good. The only way people find out about this sort of thing is if other people spread the word.
I even tried to put together some info on my website (which I never use anymore but heyho) --http://rainbowcorns.webs.com/stargazing.htm

When I think about this topic, the thing that is brought to my mind is the testing that older pregnant women go through to test their babies for down syndrome. Some mothers (not all) who's babies come back as positive can choose to abort the pregnancy, and some do. The way I feel about it is this, there should be testing to figure out what causes it, not just if a snake has it, or is a carrier. If we can figure out what causes this to happen, we can find a way to make it so its not so horrible for the animals and devastating for the breeder who's entire clutch hatches with this disease(?). Its kind of like this: someone (person) is coughing, sneezing, and throwing up; do we destroy the person because we don't know whats wrong, or do we do a blood test and find out that its only the flu, and they can take some antiviral medications? I dont think the question is whether or not to destroy an animal for the sake of science, I think the problem is that a lot of people do not understand genetics or testing. Studying the genetics is as easy as a swab of saliva, a little of blood from a blood test, or even hair (mammalia);the subject does not need to be destroyed or harmed to do this.

As people have said before,it would be ideal to have simple blood testing to find out if a corn carried the Stargazing gene. But you'd have to map out a corns entire genetic code to identify where the Stargazing gene lies/affects, and people don't have the money to get other people to find that out. And I wouldn't consider Stargazing a disease or a symptom - it's a failing in the snakes genetic code. It's missing a vital part of itself, which causes the stargazing symptoms (and overall weakness and slow growing). It's already known what causes the stargazing and the symptoms - the recessive Stargazing genes.

My opinion on it is, ProCorns, Lexcorns etc, are all doing amazing jobs. I'd hate to be in their shoes, hoping that each test clutch comes out stargazing free. Dreading a corkscrewing baby, and knowing they're going to have to do the hard thing to stop others finding the same thing in their clutches.
It's a simple recessive gene, and in the long term, all those poor babies from the testing will benefit the corns being bred in future years, keeping the captive cornsnake gene pool cleaner than if breeders just shrugged their shoulders and carried on breeding them and ignored Stargazing corns and quietly euthanizing any that popped up in their clutches.

[Deady]

Wow, I really should come on here more often!


When I found out about Stargazing, do you know what I did? I read up about it and posted about it on forums. I tried to spread the word, to let people know about it! Saying "Oh, no-one knows about, it'll never work, why bother?" is a very defeatist way of putting it. Why not tell people? Why not inform your local petshops if they aren't already aware? Send them links to youtube videos and explain why Stargazing is bad and avoiding it is good. The only way people find out about this sort of thing is if other people spread the word.
I even tried to put together some info on my website (which I never use anymore but heyho) --http://rainbowcorns.webs.com/stargazing.htm

Bravo to you.

Why'd you stop using the website? Because you found out that not many people actually care? As bad as it sounds, there's too many people in it for just the money & wouldn't hesitate to sell gazer babies, no matter what other people think. An aquarium that sells everything from Catfish to Tortoises, isn't going to give out much attention to a snake that spins etc.

Did you not read all the other posts of people telling me my opinion is basically invalid? That it's not really a debate at all, it's actually a 'If you're against testing you know nothing about snakes' kind of approach. I tried posting my opinion on this topic i knew very little about & it turned into a full blown argument, where most members now think i'm idiot.

[Wilko92]

Wow, I really should come on here more often!


When I found out about Stargazing, do you know what I did? I read up about it and posted about it on forums. I tried to spread the word, to let people know about it! Saying "Oh, no-one knows about, it'll never work, why bother?" is a very defeatist way of putting it. Why not tell people? Why not inform your local petshops if they aren't already aware? Send them links to youtube videos and explain why Stargazing is bad and avoiding it is good. The only way people find out about this sort of thing is if other people spread the word.
I even tried to put together some info on my website (which I never use anymore but heyho) --http://rainbowcorns.webs.com/stargazing.htm

Bravo to you.

Why'd you stop using the website? Because you found out that not many people actually care? As bad as it sounds, there's too many people in it for just the money & wouldn't hesitate to sell gazer babies, no matter what other people think. An aquarium that sells everything from Catfish to Tortoises, isn't going to give out much attention to a snake that spins etc.

Did you not read all the other posts of people telling me my opinion is basically invalid? That it's not really a debate at all, it's actually a 'If you're against testing you know nothing about snakes' kind of approach. I tried posting my opinion on this topic i knew very little about & it turned into a full blown argument, where most members now think i'm idiot.

I stopped using the website only because it was supposed to be my personal animal/snake website, but since finding out about Stargazing I kind of decided not to breed my corns at all, and as I'm not exactly a prominent breeder (I wish lol) I just stopped bothering to update the website. And yes, I know people don't care. When I posted my first version of that page's info, do you know what my first post on that thread was?

Did you write all that? or did you copy and past that? Just curious.

On stargazing, who cares. Feed off the ones that are stargazing. Simple as that. It does not hurt the animal in any way if it carries (het) the gene. So, as long as you are getting rid of and not selling the actual stargazers (homo), who cares.

But hey, I also got more positive posts and I made a difference. So what if you can't convince everyone? You could still make a difference to quite a few.

Everyone has their own opinion, I think you've taken it a bit to heart (I've only read this thread mind, haven't seen what was said on the previous thread). People are getting passionate about only because everyone cares about the snakes wellbeing. And it's a tough issue, noone like euthanising animals, even when they're elderly and/or in great pain and it's best for them.