Stargazer. To test or not to test?

[Adsclarke]

Hey all,

I've always maintained that this is a very emotive subject and people will always have very different opinions and views. This is good, it promotes healthy debate and the debate will help to spread the word about the Stargazer gene. Even as I type this thread is being indexed by google and will appear in front of people searching for info about corns.

While a lot of people will have different ideas about this we need to remain civil and respect others opinions. This is a grey area and there is no right or wrong. The important thing is that everyone has a clear conscience and stick to their morals.

Personally I know that I can never eradicate the problem but I can do my bit to help. I can make gazer free sunkissed lines and projects available to people so they have a choice - something they don't have now if they want sunkissed.

By making those lines available I hope that it will start to discourage people from buying lines that are likely to be carriers.

I can't bring myself to let gazer or poss het gazer animals that we breed leave us as pets as we don't know where they will end up later. That, to me, would be just like passing the gene on knowingly in the lines.

procorns and Specialcorns are working together to test our lines and to us that is very important. We are trying to educate people on the problem and get it in front of as many people as possible. We are doing this though here, our website, other forums and shows.
We are also keeping and bringing on homozygous gazer animals to study them and understand the issue more - Debbie will be doing a lot of work over the next few years with it.

Euthanising the test animals is painfully hard to us, as Debbie said we are a hobby breeder and this is our passion. We ado supply to the trade a lot and will continue to do so but only with tested lines. Everyone who buys Sunkissed from us, trade or otherwise will know that their animals are gazer free.

I suspect I've repeated myself a bit here, sorry if that is the case. I just wanted to make a couple of points on our stance clear as I think some may have misinterpreted our motivation.

Cheers
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[sguidotti]

Hi, I've been following everyone's responses on this debate and really appreciate everyone's input...it's nice seeing people care and be proactive about this issue.

There were only two concerns I had that i don't believe were addressed thus far...

keeping Stargazers as pets

If reptile stores began providing/selling +SGs (homo) as pets, would this make the industry more comfortable with breeding mutations that also carry genetic defects/disorders? Which may subsequently result in people thinking it's okay to breed these animals. Basically, creating a domino affect that ultimately results with the corn snake industry's genetic pool ruined anyway.

Second, if homo SGs were to escape into the wild (referring to those being kept in their indigenous areas in the USA) would that pose a threat to wild/native populations? (though, I admit I don't think this is a huge problem but still should be considered)

I think it's honorable to rescue a few animals but to sell homo SGs as pets in my opinion is like pot calling the kettle black. It's hypocritical and sends a confusing message about the cruciality of why we need to get rid of SG.
cheers, Sara

[Adsclarke]

Hey,

If animals carrying the gene were to get in to the general population I've got no idea what would happen. I'm assuming not a lot to be honest, I don't think the gazers would survive very long in the wild. Probably not long enough to get to breeding age.. Hets could though.

I would personally be against anyone selling / providing homozygous gazers as pet animals. I think that is somehow justifying it and that doesn't seem right to me.

Cheers
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[sguidotti]

Hets could [survive] though.

THat exactly.

I would personally be against anyone selling / providing homozygous gazers as pet animals. I think that is somehow justifying it and that doesn't seem right to me.

Exactly what I was saying. It's hypocritical of the reptile industry to suport selling/supplying SGs--provided businesses run on good ethics (guess we're all doomed).

[Dale-Newby]

The Thing That bothers me alot is that stargazer is not present in just okeetee or sunkissed morphs which are the main concern but any other morph can be affected. I bred My Amel x Snow No Gazers Popped up But thats not to say 1 isn't Het Though (which i do not know). Im now worried in the back of my mind thinking should i sell this years hatchlings!!?!! is there a chance one was carrier? im supporting getting rid of gazers. but what does this make me? if im selling poss hets for gazer. (mine are most likely not hets but mine have never been tested) & for many this could be happening. i bought my 1st corns over 5years ago before i even knew about Sg in corns.

So what do we do if this is the case??? put off the hobby all together??? lets say i was to get my hands on a homo gazer & test and non of my hatchlings were gazers then i would of created het hatchlings that i know can not be sold.... there for they would be euthanized!!! Which i wouldnt like....

Im Starting To See Deadys point alot more now! especially now im looking at it from a different angle. Its such a frustrating debate when im trying to support both sides which clash.. at the moment this isnt working well for me..........

[vetdebbie]

Whilst it is true that the gazer gene could be in other morphs, statistically it is happening very rarely in those. And most of those snakes have (where possible) been traced back to sunkissed or okeetee line. Obviously it is not possible to trace back snakes bought through a pet shop.

Generally speaking I would not worry about selling your babies, unless you have any suspicion about their heritage.

[sguidotti]

Im Starting To See Deadys point alot more now! especially now im looking at it from a different angle. Its such a frustrating debate when im trying to support both sides which clash.. at the moment this isnt working well for me..........

But what is it that bothers you about euthanasia? For me, "it's an innocent baby snake" or "it did not choose to die" don't cut it for me. Things die everyday. Babies and adults. Cute/ugly. Take all your personal feelings/emotion and set them aside and look at the situation OBJECTIVELY.

What are the facts about SGs? The list of facts I came up with is not a not a good one (which I think everybody agrees on), so knowing that, why would you still want to keep SGs alive? Pity? You feel bad for them? Again, you're letting your biassed feelings get in the way, thus hindering the genetic soundness off the gene pool all because you didn't want to humanely euthanize some homo/het SGs.

SO, what's worse? I don't intend to come off harsh but this is a debate and I am talking directly to Dale and Deady. I honest to GOD am curious to know why you think Euthanizing them is wrong. Like I said, no **** answers, come up with strait concrete details to support your argument.

[Deady]

But what is it that bothers you about euthanasia? For me, "it's an innocent baby snake" or "it did not choose to die" don't cut it for me. Things die everyday. Babies and adults. Cute/ugly. Take all your personal feelings/emotion and set them aside and look at the situation OBJECTIVELY.

I don't want to look at it objectively, i have my views & i'm afraid i stick to them. I wouldn't tell you not to believe in God just because there is no proof he ever existed would i?

why would you still want to keep SGs alive? Pity? You feel bad for them?

I would like to keep them alive because i love snakes. Completely admire them... If i saw a dog that fell over every so often because it had some strange disease but it could live a completely happy life, i wouldn't get it put down, i'd keep it & love it for everything that the disease it has - isn't.

Like I said, no **** answers, come up with strait concrete details to support your argument.

You're looking for facts, this isn't a factual argument, it is opinion based COMPLETELY. I've said it a bazillion times, my opinion is: it's wrong. Just because i'm an animal lover & would always try to find a way around killing something, may it be a snake or a slug. But the fact is: SG needs to be taken out of the lines. I've expressed that i would like to see a way to identify SG by other means than breeding alone, this isn't going to happen (At least any time soon) due to funds. So the breeding - euthanizing methods will happen until at least another method is arranged or lines are clean.


& i do think you came across as being harsh.

[Dale-Newby]

Im Starting To See Deadys point alot more now! especially now im looking at it from a different angle. Its such a frustrating debate when im trying to support both sides which clash.. at the moment this isnt working well for me..........

But what is it that bothers you about euthanasia? For me, "it's an innocent baby snake" or "it did not choose to die" don't cut it for me. Things die everyday. Babies and adults. Cute/ugly. Take all your personal feelings/emotion and set them aside and look at the situation OBJECTIVELY.

What are the facts about SGs? The list of facts I came up with is not a not a good one (which I think everybody agrees on), so knowing that, why would you still want to keep SGs alive? Pity? You feel bad for them? Again, you're letting your biassed feelings get in the way, thus hindering the genetic soundness off the gene pool all because you didn't want to humanely euthanize some homo/het SGs.

SO, what's worse? I don't intend to come off harsh but this is a debate and I am talking directly to Dale and Deady. I honest to GOD am curious to know why you think Euthanizing them is wrong. Like I said, no **** answers, come up with strait concrete details to support your argument.

You have totally miss read what i wrote!! I NEVER said euthanizing is wrong! I said what "bothers" me is that its not just sunkissed & okeetee morphs that are affected by SG. But any morph, its rare like debbie said! but its out there...... like i said i bred my corns not knowing if one is a SG Carrier (its rare but you never know) & i could of created poss hets i dunno..... and im all for wiping out the gene. i totally support Johan, Niels, Ads & Debbie 100% in what they do, But Understand Deadys frustration on the debate and see his point!

i also said i "see" Deadys point alot more.... as i mensioned that if i was to test my corns and non hatched out gazers then i would of "purposely" created carriers that can't be sold. and then they would have to be euthanized!!! yeah this is the whole point of testing to find out which are carriers. But i wouldn't like to euthanize them!! im not saying i wouldn't im saying i wouldn't like to to do it) like im guessing Johan, debbie & ads dont like doing it either!

Im "ALL" for testing but im looking at both views rather than just one side!!! thats what this debate is about! looking at the different opinions and views on the topic! & understanding them. Just like im guessing Johan, debbie & ads like seeing even though there testing. im sure they don't like what they have to do! Thats why my opinions clash because i understand everyone feelings about the subject.
And i wouldn't say your being harsh but your close lol your a bit forwards with what your saying.

Also Thanks Vetdebbie you kinda put my mind at ease i dnt know nothing about there history... but i just dont like the thought of if it was. though

[vetdebbie]

A lot of people don't like euthanasia because they don't like the idea of killing things. This is where I come from a different standpoint from my profession - I get to see a lot of it and a lot of decisions about it. I'm afraid I do not believe in 'life at all costs', for any species including humans. (I am against legal euthanasia in humans as I believe it is too hard to legislate properly and these laws could be got round too easily to cover up murder, but not the general principle of it.)

I understand that people have the "not wanting to kill the cute fluffy (scaly) ......." attitude, but I don't have it myself. I see plenty of people that are as far as I am concerned torturing their beloved pet because they won't euth. And I don't have any problems with euthanasing aggressive dogs etc etc as I'd rather that than the thing was caged for the next X years because no one will rehome. People may see this as cold and heartless, but it is just pragmatism. The SG thing is no different.

[sguidotti]

Yes, a dog could fall over repeatedly due to some disease. Yes, it could survive. Yes, it could be happy. But how many actually do live a LONG HAPPY life? Can you talk to the dog? Probably not. Therefore, your only way to properly diagnose the situation is to sit back and take and analytical approach--stop and observe the problem.
This is what they do with lab rats. Beagles and other breeds of dog for the study of cosmetology products. (Or could you live a completely vegan life?).

Yes, it is sick but if we didn't do it our world would operate MUCH differently. Threw evil we created this problem and threw evil, in a sense, we have to fight it.

You prolong it's life that it may or may not want to live because you insist on only looking at it subjectively, Ignoring signs of stress that would otherwise kill it in nature.

But since this issue is apparently already so widespread with thousands of breeding stock people have no choice but to take the scientific approach and have a few casualties on the way but in the end you have a better understanding of what is going on and a hopefully new knowledge to handle the next new outbreak (which is bound to happen).

If you're a holy man, breeding possible SGs is just as bad as breeding for a new color mutation--you're manipulating God's creation.
Deady, the ethical trail of dominos already fell--a long time ago. I bet most people who seriously breed animals for color [especially] would agree that there is always a risk for genetic defects, it just goes with the territory--however, low that risk may be it still exists. it happens in dogs--T+albino Doberman, HYPP in American Quarter horses, and many others--which is why many people with in those mentioned industries discourage breeding for color on the whole!

So, in essence it would make you a hypocrite if you are against producing animals that might possibly carry the defect [in the name of science] if you still buy corn snakes [and other selectively bred animals] that were bred for color because of the risk of genetic defects [and the added bonus of untrustworthy breeders].

With that said, you need data, facts, statistics to make an educated decision on how to handle such a serious issue.

Now do you understand why I don't take subjective based arguments seriously?

cheers, Sara

P.S. Deady, so if by your logic (because you DON'T WANT to see it objectively), than I don't need facts to to base my argument and rely solely on my own emotion driven, and often impulsive by nature, biassed opinion and I would be perfectly justified in murdering you when I'm on my period because facts don't exist and what I think is law. See Solipsism: http://fyeahcreepypasta.tumblr.com/post ... /solipsism

[Deady]

You're blowing it way out of context, quite simply.

Colour morphs of Corn Snakes happened in the wild. The first Cinder (I think) was found in the wild, captured & bred from. So clearly it is gods will. As these snakes live quite happily in a tank then i'd say it is quite alright to breed them. I may be religious to an extent but to say Gods Will stuff, is just nonsense. There is no such thing, we live we die simple as that.

This is an opinion based debate, nothing to do with God or Murder & Menstruation.

I'm actually quite confused..... I don't fully understand what the hell you're going on about.

Are you saying it is Wrong for me to think that it is Wrong to kill snakes for medical study?
Or it is wrong for me to not like Death or the killing of something?
Or it is wrong to keep an animal alive due to a defect?

Animals are instinctive, if they felt completely unwell they'd curl up & die. Snakes that don't want to feed regularly starve themselves to death. So they can't be that sad if they continue feeding.

I think turning the heat up in this argument due to 1 (Maybe 2) peoples opinions is a bit stupid & i got warned for it....

[Musharaf]

This is going way out of hand...
This is supposed to be a serious discussion.

Pleace stop it.

[vetdebbie]

Are you saying it is Wrong for me to think that it is Wrong to kill snakes for medical study?

Can I check here - you are against killing for medical or veterinary research?

Or it is wrong for me to not like Death or the killing of something?

I don't think you are wrong for not liking death. I don't like death. Who does?

Or it is wrong to keep an animal alive due to a defect?

In my opinion that is too open a question. I have no problem with keeping alive polydactyl cats for example (cats with extra claws). I do not agree with keeping alive animals with such severe defects that they cannot function normally.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you were giving your subjective opinion. Unfortunately most of the rest of the people on this thread are having an objective discussion. There is actually not possible to have a subjective discussion as subjective opinion doesn't take into account any external influence. The trick with science is to separate the subjective from the objective and not everyone can do that. There is no negativity associated with that statement, it is just how some people are wired. I can do science. I can't do music or art - not my fault just the way I am. I guess you are not so great at science, but your talents probably lie elsewhere.

You will note that I have never given my subjective opinion on this thread - mainly because I feel it would be embarrassing for my husband to have to ban me from a forum he moderates! And believe me he would have to.

[Deady]

Are you saying it is Wrong for me to think that it is Wrong to kill snakes for medical study?

Can I check here - you are against killing for medical or veterinary research?

Or it is wrong for me to not like Death or the killing of something?

I don't think you are wrong for not liking death. I don't like death. Who does?

Or it is wrong to keep an animal alive due to a defect?

In my opinion that is too open a question. I have no problem with keeping alive polydactyl cats for example (cats with extra claws). I do not agree with keeping alive animals with such severe defects that they cannot function normally.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you were giving your subjective opinion. Unfortunately most of the rest of the people on this thread are having an objective discussion.

There is actually not possible to have a subjective discussion as subjective opinion doesn't take into account any external influence. The trick with science is to separate the subjective from the objective and not everyone can do that. There is no negativity associated with that statement, it is just how some people are wired. I can do science. I can't do music or art - not my fault just the way I am. I guess you are not so great at science, but your talents probably lie elsewhere.

You will note that I have never given my subjective opinion on this thread - mainly because I feel it would be embarrassing for my husband to have to ban me from a forum he moderates! And believe me he would have to.

The questions you answered (For some reason?) where directed totally at Squidottie. Not anyone else. I thought i made that quite clear. & as Mush said, this is just getting out of hand & rather stupid, as i said earlier on in the month.... this is getting into (again) a points scoring battle between those who "know it all" & those who know very little.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you were giving your subjective opinion. Unfortunately most of the rest of the people on this thread are having an objective discussion.

By this are you telling me that i have no right to post on this topic because i don't have a objective reply? It's a bit strange that it's took half a month for one person to tell me that i'm being Subjective & not Objective... (And as i'm not the most intelligent person on this forum i don't even have a clue what you are going on about.)

How you can tell me "you can't do science" just because i'm not as knowledgeable on Stargazer than others on this website, completely baffles me.

It seems the more i reply to this topic, the more i am made to look like a dumbass. It's kind of like some people are looking for a reaction.... I'm going to end up getting shouted at again soon....